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So I Bought an Electric Car…

The new ride - a 2016 Leaf SV in a sweet '70s brown color.

The new ride – a 2016 Leaf SV in this deluxe ’70s brown color.

Before we begin, I should probably admit that the Mustache family absolutely did not need a new car. Or even a new used car. In fact, we didn’t even need the two older used cars that we have been keeping around for the last five years, because our local life has blossomed so nicely in this small city that there is really nothing outside of biking distance, aside from the odd trip to the airport.

If I were still my real retired self (circa 2005-2011), we probably would have sold these vehicles and gone blissfully car-free, combining bikes and bike trailers, with car sharing, carpooling, rentals, and Uber/Lyft rides for our trips out of town, which only average twice per month. The money savings of maybe $2000 per year would only be a minor improvement to our annual spending, but the peace of mind of a clear driveway, no maintenance or registration or maintenance or insurance, and the joy of trying something new, would be worth much more.

But instead, I now lead this dual life: Normal Pete, the retired Dad/carpenter is in control for 90% of my waking hours, but like a werewolf, his alter ego Mr. Money Mustache (circa 2011 to present) takes over occasionally, and he has a different agenda.

MMM is restless, reckless, bossy, prone to experimentation, has a surplus of blog-related income at his disposal, and has to answer to millions of people. Pete’s friends mostly live nearby and already ride bikes, but certain MMM readers are still burning millions of gallons of gasoline driving gas-powered cars on long commutes. Many of them want to know if there is a better way.

So, Mr. Money Mustache just bought himself a brand-new, 2016 Nissan Leaf to run a long-term science experiment and report the data back to you. Pete is a bit nervous about this shiny new toy in the driveway, but he will do his best to have some fun with it.

Why is this a Valid Experiment?

As I mentioned in the recent post about Driving a Tesla to California, I think we’re on the cusp of a very positive change in transportation. Gasoline-powered cars are just about to go the way of the dinosaurs they burn as fuel, and they’ll be replaced by a mixture of electric cars you can drive yourself, and electric cars that drive themselves

However, this transition is just getting started. Over 99% of new cars sold in the US are still gas-powered, and when I run the numbers as an engineer and car enthusiast, I find this to be preposterous. Logically, this should already be less than 50%, and by the end of this decade, it should be zero. The only thing keeping more people from ditching gasoline is that people don’t realize how fucking amazing electric cars are, and I feel I should do my part to share this information. The most effective way to do this is to own one myself and write about the experience.

So Why Did You Choose a Brand-New Nissan Leaf?

The simplest way to explain might be to draw a complete picture of the US car market as I see it – including both gas and electric vehicles of all categories. This decision-making chart covers the spectrum of personal transportation needs for, as far as I can tell, about 99% of the population.

Fig. 1: Car Decision Chart

Fig. 1: Car Decision Chart

I was initially looking for a 2013 Leaf, but given my city’s location (90 miles roundtrip to the airport and some other key destinations) the longer range of the 2016 SV model would eliminate all possible range anxiety. Plus, given our unusual money situation these days and my desire to support the EV market in general, I figured the extra dollars would not be missed.

Update, October 11th: The Leaf comes in three trim levels called “S”, “SV”, and “SL”. They are each about $3000 apart in price. Those top two trim levels have a 25% bigger battery, so I upgraded to the SV to get it. But as of today, Nissan has revealed they will start offering the bigger battery even in the base model. So you can now get the higher range for a few grand less than what I describe in this article.

 

What about Other Electric Cars?

Besides the Leaf, there are EV versions of the Ford Focus, Volkswagen Golf, Audi A3, BMW i3 and a bunch of other cars. By the end of 2016, the new GM Bolt will be out with 240 miles range, at a higher price. GM has also made the excellent Volt plug-in hybrid  since 2011, which is now pretty affordable on Craigslist. In another 2 years or so, you can get a Tesla Model 3 for $35k before tax credits. And the cars will keep getting better as battery prices drop.

I just chose the Leaf because I wanted to completely ditch the gasoline engine right now. It offered the best price/performance ratio in today’s market and is the most widely available. As you’ll see below, it could actually be considered a cost-effective choice despite the rapidly changing technology.

How Much Does This Thing Cost?

Now THIS is where things get interesting.

Straight off of my sales sheet, this is what the car will cost me:

  • Sticker Price (from the car window): $35,445
  • Dealer Handling Fee (aka more profit margin) added in: $600
  • Assorted Discounts from Dealer: (-4500)
  • Hard-to-Explain Discount from Nissan Finance: (-6000)
  • Federal Tax Credit: (-7500)
  • Colorado State Tax Credit: (-4653)

Sorta Net Price of Car: $13,391

However, it’s not quite that good, because many of these discounts are taken only after you pay sales tax on the full price of the car ($31,544 in this case). In my region, sales tax is about 8.26%, so I paid $2605 of tax. About $1500 more than you’d pay on a car that was really priced at 14 grand.

So my total out-of-pocket cost with tax will be $16,000, which is equivalent to buying a brand-new car with a list price of $14,775. This is right around the price of the cheapest new cars* you can get in the US these days. The difference, of course, is that you get something that is fast, silent, pollution-free, almost free to refuel, carpool-lane eligible and pretty luxurious instead of an economy car.

My Dirty Financing Secret and the Strange Positive Cashflow

Blowing all credibility as Mr. Money Mustache, I actually financed this car.

In order to get that “hard to explain $6000 discount” from Nissan, you have to buy the car with zero downpayment and a 0% interest rate. You can then choose to pay the car off at any point, or let the free money ride over a 72 month payoff period.

I’ve bought new vehicles twice before in my lifetime, and both times I got a discount for paying cash. In this case, the incentives are reversed. (If you work in the financial sector, please let us know in the comments section below why it makes any sense for Nissan to do this!)

The only downside of all this is that carrying a car loan requires me to carry at least $1000-deductible collision/comprehensive insurance on the car, which costs me $190 per year extra at Geico. My car loan is for the full $28,000, so the insurance premium works out to only 0.6% of this balance per year – much less than I’ll earn by investing that money elsewhere, so therefore I’ll keep the loan unless it becomes a pain for some reason.

The net of all this is a very odd cashflow diagram for buying this car:

My net wealth difference over time for buying this car. Original spreadsheet here.

My net cashflow difference over time for buying this car. Original spreadsheet here.

I drove the car home without paying anything at all – I just signed a few papers. Two weeks in, I still haven’t paid a dime, which feels really inappropriate.

Meanwhile, I have already sold my old car on Craigslist and collected $5000 in cash, which is now in the bank. In about a month, Nissan will start withdrawing “car payments” from my bank at $400 per month. But at tax time, I’ll collect that juicy $12,150 in tax credits we saw above. Meanwhile, there are fuel savings every month, and I get to enjoy living in the future (and promoting the joy of gas-free transport to everyone else) the whole time.

The bottom line is that at on balance, I will actually have more money sitting in investments than I would have, if I had kept the old car – at least until mid-2021. On top of that, I’ve placed the new car in service as a business vehicle, which will make it partially tax deductible and skew those graph lines even higher.

At the end of the graph, I put a blip to simulate what would happen if I sold the Leaf for $7500 at that point. Meanwhile, my Scion would have been 16 years old and worth maybe $2000. Who knows what the year 2022 will bring – I could keep the Leaf, or perhaps switch to the latest self-driving electric car with a 400 mile range and replace my domestic air travel with sleeping in my future car while it drives me across the country at night.

Maintenance is much simpler on electric cars, but the battery does fade gradually. The warranty is 8 years, but you might be down to about 50% range after 100,000 miles. The Leaf battery can easily be swapped, at which point you’ll have an almost-new car. If you’re beyond the warranty period, the current price for this upgrade at a Nissan dealership is $5500, although with battery prices down 80% over the last 10 years, I would expect this to be about 50% lower by the time a new battery grows old enough to need replacement. For now, you could consider long-term battery wear to be roughly equivalent to engine maintenance costs on a very reliable small car (3 cents per mile).

Is it Actually A Nice Car?

In general, the Leaf is a spiffy vehicle, both inside and out. Interior materials are reasonably classy, especially if you get the black interior. Seats have a firm, reasonably sporty shape.The 5-door hatchback design makes it easy to load and unload people and cargo. Both front and back seating areas, and the trunk, are quite roomy. I can easily fit five of me into the car (6’0/185 lbs), and two more of me could actually fit into the hatch (without such niceties as seatbelts or comfort, of course). Or you can fold down the 60/40 rear seats and have an area big enough for two bikes or 1-2 adults sleeping (if you set up a level sleeping platform). Overnight camping (even in winter) in an electric car is somewhat practical, because you can run the automatic climate control overnight without running out of battery – even better if you have it plugged in.

The Leaf's main computer screen, and the phone app that goes with it.

The Leaf’s main computer screen, and the phone app that goes with it**.

The car has some semi-useful electronics as well: a permanent cellular data connection allows you to check on the Leaf from your smartphone if you install the Nissan app. You can pre-heat (or pre-cool) the cabin from the comfort of your bed or office, as well as start/stop charging, check the charge level and review your driving history and efficiency with a nice calendar-based record. There’s also a GPS navigation system.

However, the whole system of menus, displays, and the app are a tech experience straight out of 2007. If you judge the Nissan by current iPhone/Android standards, you can only laugh and shake your head. On the other hand, even the Tesla Model S touchscreen is no match for a modern tablet.

Finally, the Leaf’s audio system sounds quite good thanks to 6 speakers including column-mounted tweeters. I filled up a 32GB USB drive (value $9) with about 500 of my favorite albums in MP3 form, and plugged it into the port on the dashboard. The car navigates the folders nicely and displays the album art. So I’m set for life and never have to resort to commercial FM or satellite radio.

How’s the Performance?

The Leaf is a controversial car: some say it is ugly and drives like an econobox, while I find it looks pretty damned nice, especially with the 17″ wheels and wide performance tires (215/50/17) that now come on the SV and SL models.

The weight distribution is close to 50/50 and nice and low, with the battery pack way down under the floor and the electric motor between the front wheels. Combining those good tires with the reasonably tight suspension, I find you can whip this car around on a curvy mountain road and it handles it very well. Cornering and passing in the city and interstate is similarly enjoyable.

But the best part is the acceleration. Subjectively, I’d describe the typical economy car or SUV as “plenty fast”, and a midrange performance car as “way faster than you need.” The Leaf feels even faster, at “holy shit this thing is fast!” – only a couple of impractical notches below my impression of the Tesla Model S, whose acceleration is “YEEEAAAH-WHAT THE HELL I’M ABOUT TO CRASH INTO THIS CAR THAT WAS JUST DISTANT SPECK ON THE HORIZON TWO SECONDS AGO!!”

The speed is a bit elusive: acceleration around town is fierce, but the official 0-60MPH acceleration numbers for the car are hard to find. So I tested it myself by flooring the car with a camera mounted in the back. You can also get a feel for the smooth, quiet operation of this car as there’s a bit of regular driving thrown in there:

leaf 0-60

As noted in the video, the actual numbers are only average compared to professional driver results on a moderately sporty car like a Honda Civic. But the instant 100% torque (187 ft-lbs of it) means that casually hitting the gas pedal on this car is equivalent to instantly shifting down to first gear in that Honda, revving the engine to 4000 RPM, then dropping the clutch at full throttle and powershifting through the gears at redline. Most people don’t drive like that in real life, and thus an electric car feels much faster for most drivers.

How Far Can it Go on a Charge? (and how much does the charging cost?)

The EPA rates the car at 107 miles per charge, because they simulate typical American driving patterns (full throttle at all times with constant unnecessary braking, and a parachute and a sack of bricks attached to the back of the car). So far, my lowest performance has been 115 miles (25 miles remaining after a 90 mile roundtrip to a far corner of Denver, mostly on the interstate at 70-80 MPH with A/C). And my best is around 150 miles (city and country driving averaging about 45MPH).

“How Long Does it Take to Charge?” is usually the next question, but the idea of waiting to fuel your car is actually somewhat obsolete. Because you generally just leave it plugged in every night, you awake to a car that is totally full – so most electric car owners never need to make a refueling stop. Much more convenient than gasoline.

However, to actually answer the question – you also can charge the car from empty to full in about 5 hours at the typical public charging station (these are often free to use). Or about 30 minutes at a DC fast charging station. Nissan provides 2 years of free nationwide charging with new Leafs. Public charging is starting to become pretty useful:

There are over 36,000 public charging machines in the US, and the number grows by over ten per day.  This should continue to accelerate, because an 8-car gasoline pumping station costs about $1 million to build, while an 8-spot EV charger would be less than half the cost, and requires much less land (plus profit margins on electricity can be much higher than those on gasoline). Existing gas station chains including BP are already adding electric charging stations alongside their gas pumps.

Both coasts have already set up an “electric highway” infrastructure, which is a string of the ultra-fast 30 minute chargers spaced conveniently for electric cars.

If I’m charging at home, the car holds about 30 kWh of electricity, which costs roughly $3.00 at my local electric rates. By comparison, an economy car (35MPG) would burn around $10 of gas at today’s cheap prices to go the same distance, which means the Leaf is getting the equivalent of roughly 115 MPG. This comparison gets even better as the price of gas increases.

Do I Need an Expensive Home Charging Station?

In most cases, no. Just plug the car into a regular outlet whenever you aren’t using it, using the cord that comes with the car. This adds 4-5 miles of charge per hour, or 60 miles per day if you leave your car parked from, say, 7PM to 7AM.

If you need faster home charging (3-4x faster than the standard cord), you grab a 240 volt charger (about $300 on Amazon), and plug it in to any dryer plug. You can add an outlet like this in your garage or driveway for about $60 in parts and wiring, or hire an electrician to do it for a few hundred dollars, depending on the distance from your main breaker panel. Or you can get even fancier – search Amazon for “J1772” for all your options.

It’s even better if you can plug it in at work and let your employer pay for your energy.

Don’t Electric Cars Pollute Just as Much because of Coal Power Generation?

No. Because electric motors are much more efficient, even the worst case (charging an electric car purely on coal-fired electricity) comes out slightly better than burning the typical fracked and imported gasoline mix. Even better, the US electric grid is only about 28% coal these days, and dropping. Natural gas is still our biggest generator for now, but solar and wind account for almost half of new capacity added each year.

At my house, I’ve enjoyed 100% wind power for over 10 years, just by signing up to my local power company’s wind power program. Whether you buy an electric car or not, you should check with your electric company and switch to wind power (or install solar panels) immediately. And save your receipt, because I might use it as an excuse to invite you to lunch someday.

Further Reading:

This car is a pretty new thing for me. As I have some fun and test it out, I’ll put the results on a permanent page on this blog called The Nissan Leaf Experiment.

Although I have no affiliation with Nissan or any car dealership, I had a great experience buying this from Nigel at Boulder Nissan, because he’s a genuine EV nerd rather than a car salesman. If you’re shopping for one of these cars, feel free to compare the price I paid price to those at your own local dealership, or contact Nigel himself. You can tell him MMM sent you (he’ll know what that means).

Have Questions? Ask them in the comments below

I really enjoy talking about energy and transportation stuff, so I will do my best to answer more questions below. Also, I suspect that about half of the world’s 97,000 Leafs are owned by Mustachians since we are the ideal demographic for such inventions. So you’re an owner and know the answer to one of the questions, feel free to answer it on my behalf. And also share any corrections to this article if you see some incorrect details.

* note: most of the cars on that 10-most-affordable-cars list are excellent choices, especially the Honda Fit

** notice how my phone reports a different range than the main screen? That’s the perfect example of the clunky interface. You have to manually hit the “refresh” button on the phone app, which then goes into an unsightly 1990s spinning animation for, quite literally 38 seconds before you get the new data.

I can’t help imagining the request must be triggering a pager on someone’s belt at the Nissan Tennessee factory, who then runs to the nearest landline telephone and frantically makes a call.

Martha: “Hello, Bill? This is Martha at Nissan Tennessee. We need a range check on Mr. Money Mustache’s Leaf in Longmont Colorado!” 

Bill: “No problem, I’m right in that neighborhood right now! I’ll pull into his street and check on the car. Stand by. (…)”

Bill: “OK! I got it! He’s at 124 miles remaining.”

Martha: “Thanks Bill! You are like a gazelle these days. How are the kids?”

Bill: “Well, Bill Jr. is a little bit sick, but we’re doing pretty well. Cynthia’s starting soccer next week…”

Martha: “Well, I better get this number entered into the mainframe. Talk to you later!”

Bill: “Sure thing, talk to you later!”

A few seconds later, I get my range update.

Hint to Nissan: you can poll this shit asynchronously in the background, and then the data will be reasonably current whenever I open the app. You cannot have 38 second delays in a product that you actually ship to customers. Who actually saw this and said, “Ship it!”?? Please hire some Mustachians to design all aspects of your interface in the future. We can help if you want to get in touch before the next Leaf comes out. Your look-and-feel grace period is almost over, as Tesla will not be gentle with you.

  • mark October 7, 2016, 8:29 am

    Note that these tax credits are UP TO amounts. In order to realize the tax credits you claim, your salary would need to be in the range of 140-170k per year. If salary is less that that, you would not have paid into the tax system at a level that would allow the maximum amount of credit. In other words. Your average middle class Coloradan making say 70k per year would not be able to claim tax credits ANWHERE NEAR what you lay out in this article. This seems a bit deceiving.

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 7, 2016, 9:11 am

      Hi Mark, good point and I’ll add a footnote about it.

      However, could you provide a link to where you calculated that income level? According to my calculations, you cross $7500 federal at about $100k income, even if you are married and deducting the full $18,000 for 401(k): https://smartasset.com/taxes/income-taxes#31FOLoMacK

      I definitely don’t think anyone with a household income under $100,000 should be buying a $15,000+ brand new car anyway, so hopefully this article is not too out-of-whack with my other advice.

      Reply
  • AJ October 7, 2016, 9:41 am

    You asked the question of why the incentive to finance.

    I am a Finance Manager for a dual dealership and the real reason is due to the ability to sell a payment versus the selling price of a car. It also allows the Finance department (in the dealership) to sell more product (ie extended warranty, maintenance, GAP). It all goes back to payment though. If I tell you the car is $40,000 plus fees, I KNOW most people will look at a $20-25,000 car instead. Think about this “payment” selling that I speak of…if I tell you I can keep your payment in the $500’s (really $599/mo) WITH a warranty for the life of the loan, plus GAP insurance on the loan, you would be surprised how many people will go for this (and now you just sold a $40,000 car instead of a $22,500 car – and added insurance products!). It is huge profits to the dealership and the manufacturer (if you sell their products). This is why there is such an incentive to finance.

    Trust me, I do this everyday. Most people cannot afford a new car. Low interest financing makes it appear they can…it also is easier to say to somebody an extended warranty is $25 per month instead of $2000.

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 8, 2016, 7:52 am

      Right, but my question was a little different:

      I’m at the dealership, with cash in the bank. And I’m going to buy a LEAF anyway.

      Given this situation, why is it profitable to give me a $6,000 discount for accepting 0% financing, and REFUSE to give me that $6,000 discount for giving you the cashier’s check for the full price of the car, right there on the spot? And furthermore, why not offer me a discount equal to the price of servicing that six-year loan? In my other two purchases (a 2004 Subaru and a 2001 Honda Motorcycle), this is what happened when I paid cash.

      Your point about the opportunity to sell other stuff (Gap, maintenance, warranty) is a good one. They did try to sell me that stuff in the financing room, even after I warned them “I will not be buying any extras, no matter how attractively they are priced.” Slightly annoying.

      Another financial guy’s point was interesting, saying “Many people don’t qualify for the 0%, so the financial arm makes money off of them.” That could be a valid source of profit – if you agreed to the deal, then found out it was really 5% interest, and still went ahead with it. (Which I would not have done)

      So in my mind the mystery still remains partially unsolved. :-)

      Reply
  • David October 7, 2016, 11:51 am

    I JUST did pretty much the same deal to get a new 2016 Leaf SV, with a similar (albeit a bit more expensive) deal here in Los Angeles. I went through a decision process that also considered a used Rav4 EV, and waiting for the Bolt or the 2017 Leaf, but ended up going with the 2016 Leaf SV largely due to that $6k discount from Nissan.
    http://dgalvan.blogspot.com/2016/10/turning-over-new-leaf-part-2.html

    In my case, I was replacing our 2014 Leaf S, which was totaled in an accident (not my fault: I was stopped in traffic on the freeway and got rear-ended, hard, pushing my car into the one in front of me.)

    My lesson learned from that accident: IF YOU ARE GOING TO BUY A QUICKLY DEPRECIATING NON-TESLA EV, YOU SHOULD PROBABLY SPRING FOR GAP INSURANCE!

    Our 2014 Leaf was a “total loss”, and the “actual market value” (AMV) was $11,700 (including sales tax), yet we still owed $13,900 on our 0% interest loan. This means we were now without our beloved car, the $11,700 settlement went to the title holder (Nissan Motor Acceptance Corp), and we still were responsible for paying off the remaining $2200 to Nissan for the car we no longer had. Again, through no fault of our own, we lost our car, and still had to pay $2200 for it. If we had purchased gap insurance, the remaining balance after the settlement would have been completely forgiven, and we’d just be starting from scratch on getting a new car, instead of starting from scratch and having to pay off the remainder on the balance.

    Bottom line, Nissan Leafs depreciate far faster than traditional cars (for a variety of reasons, including the actual car’s value being MSRP minus the tax credits and rebates, but depreciation is calculated based on the MSRP; also the fact that these EVs are being functionally improved year-to-year, making a couple-year old model look less attractive).

    Here’s my blog post about the accident and my lesson-learned regarding gap insurance.

    http://dgalvan.blogspot.com/2016/10/turning-over-new-leaf.html

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 8, 2016, 7:46 am

      An interesting story David (and I’m sorry to hear about that annoying crash).
      But it sounds like your story might be weighted towards personal experience, rather than considering the overall likelihood of being in a crash.

      I definitely acknowledge that accidents can happen, and they can make you lose money. But the math suggests that over the long run, you will still end up wealthier by not purchasing insurance to protect yourself from these improbably expenses:
      http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/06/02/insurance-a-tax-on-people-who-are-bad-at-math/

      Reply
  • Mistachio October 7, 2016, 3:10 pm

    EVs certainly do go hand in hand with solar, especially if we figure out grid scale storage. In the meantime, if those who own EVs are interested in supporting increased utility solar deployment, it makes the most sense to charge EVs during the day.

    Nitty gritty details for a case study here:
    http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/66595.pdf

    Reply
  • Kimberly October 7, 2016, 4:21 pm

    Thanks for bringing a small glimmer of hope back into our lives after what we wonder might have been the dumbest decision we ever made (buying a Leaf). As usual, your scenario has a few little differences from ours that seem to cross over the tipping point to create a win-win-win for you, while it is a nightmare (literally, I have actual nightmares about range anxiety) for us. Context is everything.

    We bought ours secondhand, in great condition, but the 35,000 miles it came with had already depleted the max range down to about “72 miles,” which in real life is good enough to get you almost 50 real miles. We quickly adapted to the various downsides:
    1.) air conditioning is forbidden
    2.) range anxiety is a regular occurrence (one of my jobs is 20 miles away and this is our only car)
    3.) constant fear of getting pulled over for going too slow
    4.) I have to carry a bike in the backseat at all times, because if I’m lucky enough to find a charger, it is likely 2-3 miles away from my actual destination.

    Which brings me to our biggest issue: Access to charging stations.
    We live in Silicon Valley, and when I saw the map boasting over 800 public charging stations between San Jose and Palo Alto, the Leaf seemed like a brilliant idea, so we bought it. But it turns out about 80% of those “public” stations are only for:
    a.) employees of that company
    b.) residents of that building
    c.) guests at that hotel
    Of the remaining stations, some are broken, some are only accessible on weekdays, some have 2 hour time limits, one charges $6 per kwh (?!?!), some have other cars parked in front of them, and on a surprisingly regular basis, I pull up to a parking lot just in time to see someone else slide into the (only) EV spot in front of me. It is very common to spend over half an hour just looking for a charger, squandering my last few precious miles while the dashboard flashes its ominous low battery warning at me.

    A few other differences between your story and ours include the rebates (of course, no federal incentive for a used car, and California is pretty much over the whole Clean Energy fad, so no one is impressed by environmental decisions anymore) and the Nissan dealer relationship. I didn’t buy the car directly from them, but I thought I’d still be welcomed into the Nissan family for being one of their loyal drivers. Not so. It turns out many dealers look down on EV owners. The Leaf requires less maintenance which translates to less revenue for the dealership, so they want nothing to do with us.

    …But it’s refreshing to see your enthusiasm for this extravagantly expensive golf cart, and I am curious to see how your experiment turns out!

    Reply
  • Mina October 7, 2016, 5:27 pm

    Hi MMM,

    I went to the local Nissan dealership to find out more about rebates in my state (Hawaii). Did you consider the lease option over purchase and finance? They seem to be pushing the lease with $11,625 in rebates (brings cost down from $32,000 to $22,439), 0 down and then a set residual value option to purchase at then end of 36 months. Like you, I have always bought used and paid in full with cash so I’m a bit hesitant to go to the dealer. Your feedback is appreciated! Mahalo! (Thank you in Hawaiian.) :)

    Reply
  • Jared October 7, 2016, 5:53 pm

    Given the option, would you have chose the Chevy Bolt over the Nissan Leaf? Similar modular battery pack, and longer distance per charge would seem like a better option at almost the exact same cost. I know you said you wanted to do it immediately, but the bolt is only a few months away. If you believe the press releases of course.

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 8, 2016, 7:27 am

      Hey Jared – Yes! I think the 2017 Bolt will be a significantly better car than the 2017-and-earlier Leaf. More than double the range, plus even faster and with better electronics.

      However, it will start at $10,000 higher (because of the Nissan incentives), so it’s in a different category. The Leaf already does 99%+ of what most people use a car to do, so this article was partly meant to highlight a market anomaly: “Hey! Brand-new luxury electric car for the price of the cheapest gas cars!”

      People with who have money shortage at all, who were absolutely going to buy a high-end gas car anyway, should definitely consider the Bolt. I hope to test one out myself – maybe a GM marketing person or local dealer can lend/rent me one for a week for a competitive review.

      Reply
  • Earl October 7, 2016, 8:11 pm

    Reply
    • Matt October 8, 2016, 7:58 am

      MMM still does all those things in his heart. He’s merely running an experiment to highlight a possible alternative for us weaklings whose minds and mustaches aren’t nearly as expansive and grand as his.

      Reply
  • Karl Fisch October 8, 2016, 6:02 pm

    Would be interested in folks’ thoughts on the following. We also live in Colorado, so have access to these great rebates (might have to convert some retirement saving to a Roth just to be sure, but close). (MMM, curious why the Colorado rebate was “only” $4653, from the calculations I’ve seen for the Leaf it should qualify for the full $6000.) We currently have a Tesla Model 3 reserved. I know, not very Mustachian, but we do typically keep cars for a very long time – currently driving a 1995 Honda Civic and a 2006 Toyota Prius, and want to help “accelerate the advent of sustainable transport” – at least that’s how I’m rationalizing it :-).

    Ever since we put down the reservation on the Model 3 I’ve been toying with the idea of getting a new Leaf this year, then trading it in when we get the Tesla in late 2017 or early 2018. With the state and federal incentives, plus Nissan’s incentives, net price would be around $14-$15K (local dealerships have some that are slightly less sticker than what MMM bought). My thinking was, drive an electric car for a year plus, and adding another gently used electric car into the market at that point, and then figuring a one year old Leaf *might* trade at close to that $14-15K amount. It’s the *might* that has held me back.

    Trading with Tesla is slightly different, since they claim they value trades based on the entire US market, instead of a dealer that typically looks more closely at the local market. My thinking was that while a one-year old Leaf in Colorado might not trade for $14k (because of the large Colorado incentive), if Tesla truly looks at US pricing, then for states that don’t have Colorado’s incentives a used Leaf would be worth more.

    So, thoughts? What do you think a one plus year old Leaf will trade for when both the Bolt and Model 3 are out? Do you think that it would get a higher trade price because it would sell for more in other states that don’t have the incentive? And, is this taking advantage of an opportunity or being slimy and simply “taking advantage”? (feeling a little morally conflicted)

    Reply
    • E A October 17, 2016, 7:55 am

      My guess is that resale value for EVs with 100 miles range (and less) will crater once the Bolt and Model 3 are readily available. Resale values for low mileage lease-returned EVs are already understood to be sitting at 40% of the “residual value” that got them out the door new for cars like the Leaf and Fiat 500e. The only thing I could imagine mitigating the impact of the affordable higher-range cars on the used market would be if gas prices cycle back up in the same time frame.

      Reply
  • Chris October 9, 2016, 12:18 am

    I live in New Zealand, – so this might not apply in the US: A mechanic friend who works in a Nissan dealership said to me that the one issue with the Leaf is that it is extremely expensive to repair: Many things that can ‘break’ or go wrong have to be purchased as “component parts” and often cost several thousands of dollars just for the parts. I am not sure if that is because of where i live or a general issue with electric vehicles, or electric vehicles from other countries? Would appreciate any comment regarding this.

    Reply
  • Jratch October 9, 2016, 2:04 am

    I’m not rich like MMM yet, however I have been trying to think this same issue through for my next car purchase. I never buy new, and have heard that the electric motors and parts last a long time without need for repair. Also that there are a lot of people who were early adapters who bought those 2011 & 2012 Leaf’s who have buyers remorse. Seems like a good opportunity once the cost of a new 30 Kwh battery drops, and the cars are basically being given away (I’m thinking 2018), however batteries will probably be even better by then. How sound is this thinking, and at what point cost wise would it make sense? I live in GA so the heater thing is no big deal, it only gets so cold here.

    Reply
  • Tim October 9, 2016, 7:22 am

    MMM. I was close to buying a used Leaf last year. I settled on a Nissan Versa Note instead. Why? Range. The used Leaf was expected to get 70 miles per charge. Not good enough. 100 miles per charge is a game changer for me.

    I will be following with interest.

    For those interested, I really liked this book. Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a… by Ashlee Vance http://amzn.to/2d0B4HS. It’s a good read and offers good context on electric cars. In short, we are living history!

    Reply
  • Katie October 9, 2016, 8:55 am

    Just got almost the same deal with the Nissan dealership in Aurora, CO! We paid $14300 including sales tax with 0% financing. We will be banking several thousand $$$ immediately by finally selling our Tacoma, and saving at least $150 a month on gas! Win Win Win! And we still have our subaru outback when we need to get to the trailheads. The hardest part was getting the leaf over eisenhower pass and vail pass to the western slope:D

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 9, 2016, 11:47 am

      Yeah, I could see that being a bit of a challenge with a 100+ mile trip and 6000 feet of elevation gain as soon as you leave Denver – did you stop in Frisco or another mountain town to charge it?

      Reply
      • Katie October 10, 2016, 9:33 pm

        I stopped in Idaho springs, Frisco and vail because I was so nervous about the passes (first time driving it). Going downhill from Eisenhower pass to Frisco added an entire battery bar due to the regenerative braking! I vote we need a fast charger in Frisco and vail.

        Reply
  • sarah October 9, 2016, 11:15 am

    A friend discouraged us from electric because of the emissions and environmental impact associated with manufacturing EVs. Here’s an article (https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/) that addresses it. The article does claim that, overall, the EVs have a net less environmental impact of a gas vehicle. But, the point is that EV doesn’t mean 0 emissions, even if you charge off of solar; but, it does mean less, probably, over the lifetime of a car. And, buying EV should not replace lobbying your congressperson(s) about government investments/incentives for power generation alternatives. :-)

    Reply
    • Huppie October 11, 2016, 2:25 pm

      The dutch government did a study on this exact thing. It was conducted by TNO (“Netherlands Organisation for Applied Scientific Research”). I only have a dutch link for you but I’ll do my best to translate the summary here:

      Production / Destruction
      – With 45g/km CO2 for the ‘material lifceycle’ emissions (basically: the construction / destruction process) conventional (ICE) vehicles are the lowest of all vehicle types. In comparison the ‘material lifecycle emissions’ of a full electric vehicle is about 45% higher (65g/km CO2.)

      Usage
      – The emissions of the total Well-to-Wheel chain of conventional (ICE) vehicles are at least 150g/km (non-plugin hydrids) up to 200g/km. At the same time with electric vehicles this depends on the energy mix used to charge the vehicle. This varies between 10g/km for full electric vehicles charged with ‘green’ energy to 150g/km for plug-in hybrids that are charged with ‘grey’ energy.

      Totals
      – The total CO2 emissions varies between 250g/km for a regular ICE vehicle and 70g/km for a full-electric vehicle powered by ‘green’ energy. Even when using ‘grey’ energy, an electric vehicle still averages about 30% less total emissions compared to a regular vehicle or 15% less total emissions when compared to a hybrid vehicle.
      – The total CO2 reduction for a plug-in hybrid (PHEV) vehicle powered by ‘grey’ energy is 15% less than a regular ICE vehicle. This is because their assumption is that because of the small battery PHEVs are driven only about 30% of the time on electricity. When powered by ‘green’ energy a reduction of ~25% can be achieved. * It also notes that for PHEVs with a battery that’s twice as big as most current PHEVs the reductions compared to regular vehicles may grow to 25% (grey) to 45% (green.)

      Furthermore there’s various notes:
      – Other emissions (NOx and Particulates) that are very low for electric vehicles (basically only a little bit of particulates from tires.)
      – Indirect emissions (i.e. from production / destruction) are found to be way less impactful than the direct emissions from the cars.
      – For ‘green’ energy, other emissions (NOx, PM, SOx) are about ten times lower than the regular energy mix.
      – It is important to think about proper ways of recycling to prevent scarcity of materials.
      – Safety of EVs in general is comparable to regular vehicles
      – There is a slight increased risk of accidents with pedestrians because of a lack of engine noise.
      – There are courses available for emergency personnel to learn how to handle EVs when damaged.

      Source (in dutch): http://www.rvo.nl/sites/default/files/2015/04/TNO%20Factsheets%20Elektrische%20Voertuigen.pdf

      Reply
  • J-Bone October 9, 2016, 11:54 pm

    Just wondering if you could point me in the right direction to start generating my own wind power and solar power in BC, Canada.

    Reply
  • Reed October 10, 2016, 5:12 pm

    Congrats on the new ride – I still love my 2011 Leaf even though it’s on its second battery. Given your engineering background – thought you might like this analytics app/tool combo to track your new toy. LeafSpy Lite is a (free) handy Android app that (when paired with a cheap $10 bluetooth OBD2 sensor) lets you get a bit more detail about the health/status of your Leaf’s battery pack if you’re interested in tracking it…

    Congrats again on going electric and thank you for your blog – love it!
    -Reed.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Turbo3.Leaf_Spy_Lite&hl=en

    https://www.amazon.com/Excelvan-Bluetooth-Interface-Scanner-Adapter/dp/B007P14NPU

    Reply
  • Keren Duchan October 11, 2016, 7:58 am

    We don’t have these car options in Israel. Nor the option to get wind powered electricity. You guys are lucky.

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 11, 2016, 8:58 am

      Wow, I had to look that up before I believed you. Israel is a high-tech country in a sunny desert at the same latitude as Southern California. With oil-related problems. And they are still burning oil to make electricity and run their cars? Solar electricity would fix that shit up pretty quickly.

      Reply
  • swaayze October 11, 2016, 10:23 am

    I hit the state fair yesterday with the hope of checking out the Chevy Bolt. Excited to see it there I popped open the door to sit in the driver seat. It felt like I sat on a steel bar getting in (the super-hard plastic seat frame that comes up rapidly due to ridiculously minimal padding on the seat bottom) and the seat back was too narrow and has virtually no padding. Man what a disappointment! The interior is crap (I’m 6’2″ and 180, so tall but not really large – and tall wasn’t the problem). Maybe it’s still a display prototype and will get better?

    By contrast I then shuffled over to the Leaf SL and eased into the comfy, spacious leather chariot. Nissan still wins for Everyman. Just a few more years…..

    Reply
  • Huppie October 11, 2016, 1:55 pm

    Wow, that’s pretty cool. Did you think of charging the batteries using PV-T (solar) instead of power from the grid?

    As a fellow EV-driver, just remember that if you ever want to do overnight camping you should keep the ‘ignition’ on. Otherwise you will deplete your 12V battery without it recharging from the main EV battery. You won’t be the first EV driver that can’t start their car because the 12V battery is empty.

    Reply
  • Mikhail October 11, 2016, 7:41 pm

    I think the reason purchase incentives are reversed (it’s cheaper to pay in installemnts) is due to negative interest rates in Japan.

    May well be wrong as I’m not familiar how Nissan USA and Headquarters are tied.

    Reply
  • PM October 12, 2016, 10:39 am

    I actually just jumped into the semi car market as well. I have a 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI that VW now has to buy back for nearly the original used value of the car from 5 years ago. We chose to get a Prius Plug in over a new all gas car (we have very low EV mileage needs). So, score one free car. On top of the VW money we were able to get a very nice 1.5% rate from my credit union for the full purchase price of the car. Instead of putting the VW money into the new car, it’s going directly into VTSAX. At even a modest return we should end up with a decent return on the VW punish money and a much newer, nicer car to boot.

    Driving around in EV mode is like piloting the shuttle craft from the Enterprise. Even on a sputtering car as slow to go as the Prius is. That said, if you’re in the country, charging stations aren’t super plentiful. There is one at the base of one of the nicest hiking trails in the Northeast though…

    Reply
  • Chris October 12, 2016, 2:44 pm

    I was getting carried away with myself. I don’t need a Leaf now. I can wait till my cheap car dies. By then who knows, could be that self-driving EV taxis are the norm. Maybe we don’t even need a car. Perhaps just another ebike + trailer.

    Reply
  • Kevin October 13, 2016, 10:10 am

    Great article! I just wanted to point something out that you might have missed.
    You say that because you bought it new in CO that you got the additional tax rebate. I actually bought a 2011 Volt while living in Colorado but bought it in Chicago, took a flight and drove it back. I got the full CO tax credit on the purchase because the VIN had never been registered in Colorado and therefore not been used for the CO alternative fuel credit. It was the full (18%?) of the purchase price.

    Just wanted to clarify that from those that might not have the full means to purchase new. I ended up buying a used Volt with 38k miles for 16k and then getting another almost 3-4k in CO tax credit!

    Thanks for spreading the message you do!

    Reply
  • Andrew G October 14, 2016, 12:46 pm

    MMM, since you have an Android phone check out the Leaf Manager app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.darkspawns.leafmanager&hl=en

    Has basically the same functionality of the Nissan app but polls in the background so you can actually use your phone while you wait (it’s not faster per request, but it doesn’t block). If you pay for the in app purchase of the widget you don’t even have to open the app, can turn on the climate control straight from the home screen, one button.

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 15, 2016, 6:51 pm

      Thanks Andrew, I do use that one now. Definitely a little better, but still a little buggy.

      But even with the flaws, I do find it very handy to be able to check on the car’s charge level without having to go to the car. In the dead of winter, it will be fun to try out the pre-heating too.

      Reply
  • Sonya October 14, 2016, 11:13 pm

    We are living in the Canadian Rockies, where we have a home, and also 3-6 months of the year in Seattle. Our 2008 Prius has been terrific, and we don’t drive much except for road trips, and to occasional backcountry adventures. We’d love to consider an electric vehicle, or some kind of hybrid. I’m better off buying a car in Canada, though Alberta doesn’t offer tax credits, because Canadians can’t drive US plated vehicles. What does the MMM community know about buying electric in Canada? Am I right that we might be best to use bus etc. in the city rather than go through the nonsense of changing plates/license/insurance? Yes, customs makes it complicated.

    Reply
  • Chris October 15, 2016, 6:09 pm

    What about the running costs for Leaf repairs? I live in New Zealand and a mechanic friend working for Nissan told me that the one big downside for Leafs is that replacement parts are extremely expensive, partly because when something small breaks you have to buy a whole new ‘component part’, often costing many thousands. I don’ t know if this is just the case down here or everywhere . Any experiences with that?

    Reply
    • Chaz October 21, 2016, 12:06 am

      I would ask him what parts he is concerned about. If he mentions the transmission, cooling system, fuel system or exhaust systems then he does not yet know about EVs to respect his opinion.

      Reply
      • chris October 24, 2016, 4:12 am

        Well obviously not. One examole he gave was the heating system. It seems that when a fuse is blown you can t just replace that fuse. One has to by a whole component for incredible nzd 10.000.

        Reply
  • Navy Nick October 15, 2016, 7:00 pm

    Pete,

    I looked into the Renewable Power Purchase Program from City of Longmont, Colorado that you had linked to. Is it possible they made a mistake in their price quotes?

    “They have 100 kWh blocks of energy are available for an additional $2.96 per month”
    And they also quote:
    “For an extra cost of 0.0296 cents/kWh, you can source all of your electric usage from renewable energy.”

    So, is it 0.0296 cents/kWh or should it be 0.0296 dollars/kWh?

    Thank you so much for helping me understand!

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 20, 2016, 8:52 pm

      Yeah, it is 2.96/kWh, or 0.0296 dollars :-)

      Since we only use 200 kWh/month (plus a few more now to fuel the Leaf), the cost of going all-wind is under $10 per month for my whole house!

      Reply
      • Chaz October 21, 2016, 12:12 am

        That’s very cool

        Reply
  • Mr Nissan October 18, 2016, 6:26 am

    “Hint to Nissan: you can poll this shit asynchronously in the background, and then the data will be reasonably current whenever I open the app. You cannot have 38 second delays in a product that you actually ship to customers. Who actually saw this and said, “Ship it!”?? Please hire some Mustachians to design all aspects of your interface in the future. We can help if you want to get in touch before the next Leaf comes out. Your look-and-feel grace period is almost over, as Tesla will not be gentle with you.”

    You ever tried using Search Engine on own MMM forum??!! That, Mr Mustache, is a laughable! We at Nissan work on our cutting-edge tech, why you bring your 1990s, medieval times search engine up to code. It couldn’t find its way out of paper bag. :)

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 20, 2016, 9:07 pm

      Gasp! You are right Mr. Nissan. That search box sucks, and it shouldn’t even be there – to search this or any site you simply type site:forum.mrmoneymustache.com into Google or your browser address bar. I’m just too lazy and disorganized to remove that box so far.

      But we should also adjust our expectations too – I’m a retired family man with no employees, running a site that still somehow serves several million people. Nissan is an international company with 150,000 employees and a high-tech product to sell into a competitive market. I would argue that you should be held to much higher standards than I.

      Reply
  • Brian October 19, 2016, 6:46 am

    What are batteries made from? With all the new LARGE batteries being produced, do we risk depleting any resources? Or damaging the environment by strip mining in search of some particular metals? Any good articles on this?

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 20, 2016, 8:42 pm

      Hey Bian, there are a bunch of articles on it if you poke around on Google – I’ll share some of my research if I write another post on environmental cost of e-cars. But the summary is this:

      All cars (electric or gas) are hugely resource-intensive to make. Larger and more luxurious cars are much more costly, because they use more materials and more exotic ones. A midsized e-car like the Leaf is higher than a comparable gas car to manufacture, but not by much. Once you consider fuel savings, it comes out ahead within the first year or so.

      Reply
  • mark October 23, 2016, 3:53 pm

    Great post. The only question I’d have is the claim of 100% wind power, not by you, but by who is selling it to you. I’ve always wondered this, but could never find an answer. Maybe I’m an idiot, but if they’re running a grid with various generation methods how can they send exclusively one source of power to specific customers?

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 25, 2016, 5:34 pm

      Hi Mark, there have been a few comments about this (even a few angry ones from the pro-fossil-fuel crowd). The answer is that of course you are right – electricity is fungible and every single house on a power grid will get exactly the instantaneous mix that is being generated at that moment. Thus, my house is indeed consuming some coal-generated electricity at times.

      But when I buy wind 100% power, my power company is obliged to purchase that amount from wind generating companies on an ongoing basis, which means they give the money to wind farms instead of coal plants. This causes more wind farms to grow, and coal plants shut down or delay expansion. In the long run, the effect is exactly the same as me having a wind turbine on my roof.

      There’s a side debate over “Yeah, but you still need inefficient peaker plants to fill in for when the wind is slow!” – but then there is solar (perfectly ramps up when we need power most – during sunny days), and small, cheap natural gas peaker plants for now, and in the fairly near term they can simply be battery banks – even right within our own houses. Rather than protecting the unacceptable status quo of fossil fuels, I propose that we shake things up and overcome the minor technical challenges to go all-renewable.

      Reply
      • mark October 25, 2016, 8:36 pm

        Cheers mate, thanks for the response.

        Reply
  • snowcanyon October 23, 2016, 5:27 pm

    The Leaf looks fantastic, but I have to confess I’m worried. Maybe MMM is only happy with the his 25k savings 80-90% of the time, as he notes in the article. While I save like crazy and spend little, I worry that ER will always be out of reach if I too have 10% of wildness.

    Most of us may have a side gig in retirement, but probably not one as lucrative as the MMMs, and I worry that the 10% within all of us will ruin the whole plan of ER. MMM is an inspiration not so much for his saving and advice but for his living on 25k a year. Admittedly he can afford more, but for those of us that can’t, is this just a pipe dream? Will it work for six years before we want a Leaf, or a new wardrobe, or a fancy trip, or an Iphone?

    Reply
    • The Wealthy Accountant October 25, 2016, 9:10 am

      I understand what you are saying, snowcanyon. Doug Nordman gave me the best advice on this, saying, “You have more than you think. Don’t keep saying you will working one more year for a little bit more. You are already there.” He is right. MMM does have a nice income. If you read this blog carefully you will see he easily could live off the income from his investments prior to starting this blog.

      The great thing about ER is that investments are usually taxed lower than wage income. Since the value of tax credits require a tax, it is harder to benefit from the electric vehicle credits. That is a good problem to have: lots of money, but low taxes.

      Finally, you will be surprised how much money you will make on your retirement side gig. These things have a way of taking over and dumping more cash on you than when you worked for the man.

      Reply
  • Brian C October 25, 2016, 10:35 pm

    I work in the lending business, although it’s not in auto lending. I can guarantee that the dealership/financing company is making plenty of money financing vehicles, even at 0%. Here’s how I would do the math if I were in the business:

    1. Compare how much money people spent on cars when financed versus paid in cash. I would guess your average consumer sukka pays $5-$10K more for options / bigger engine etc. when financed versus paying in cash. I also recognize that the marginal cost of production for these upgrades is probably pretty small. They probably have 60-80% gross margins on the upgrade packages.

    2. Convince people they’re leaving money on the table by not financing. If you give a price discount for financing, people will take the offer. This leads people straight into the arms of the captive finance companies that have generally noncompetitive rates. Interest rates on the captive financing (required to get the discount) will be higher for most interest paying sucka’s than they could get by shopping around. The difference could be dramatic. As an old example, I financed $3K of a car purchase in my early 20’s. I got a 5% rate from my bank, but the captive finance company quoted me 25%. How many people would still pay 25% interest rate in exchange for a price discount on the car?

    Reply
  • Jonathan October 27, 2016, 10:09 am

    Can I get more details on the USB drive for music in the car? I’m assuming you avoided the whole Apple iTunes mess, so was this done via a Windows machine? What software did you use to rip the music from your CDs? Did the USB drive still need to be formatted as FAT32 to work on the car stereo system? I’m looking for ideas of how to manage my music without going through iTunes, since Apple has messed it up so much since 2001. It ain’t what it used to be. I used to have a great digital library, and now I’m very dissatisfied. Perhaps this could be a separate blog post, with details.

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 27, 2016, 10:29 am

      Yeah, iTunes is definitely a disaster! Tries to hide the true nature of your lifetime-accumulated music collection (mp3s with filenames, in folders), and pretend it is part of a big fluffy “library” which it tries to “sync” whether you want it or not.

      Then if you want to share music with a friend, you try to plug your iPhone into their laptop and your own music is HIDDEN from you – WTF!?!

      This was my primary reason for switching from iPhone to Android phones after one initial crack at the Apple world.

      Any computer (Windows, Mac, Linux, etc) has the ability to encode, store, share MP3 files. It’s mainly the iPhone itself that has the critical flaw of not showing its filesystem like the external hard drive it really is, when you plug it into a computer

      I ripped all my old CDs using good old Windows Media Player, which does a fine job. Just to 256 kb/s MP3 format since every device can play mp3s. Yes, the Windows-standard of FAT32 works in car stereos and other portable players.

      Long live non-proprietary media!

      Reply
  • Kyle October 27, 2016, 10:58 am

    Hi, MMM. I’m getting ready to buy a used 2015 Leaf. I plan to minimize cost by trickle charging the car with a standard 120V outlet in my garage instead of installing a 240V charging station. However, Nissan specifies that the outlet should be on a dedicated circuit to avoid tripping a breaker or overheating. I called an electrician to check the outlet and put it on a dedicated circuit if it’s not already.

    I’m sure you mentioned this already, but are you charging using a household outlet? Is it necessary to ensure that the outlet is on a dedicated circuit? I’d appreciate any feedback you and any other readers could give me. Thanks!

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache October 27, 2016, 5:45 pm

      Hi Kyle, thanks for asking! Nissan is a big, cautious company and as such they like to cover their ass. But no, you don’t necessarily need a dedicated circuit.

      I measured the charger’s power draw – it consumes 1333 watts during charging and less than 1 watt at standby. Most US outlets are wired for 20 amps (2400 watts), and from my upbringing I remember Canadian outlets may be 15 amps (1875 watts). This leaves quite a bit to spare, unless you are sharing that outlet with a bathroom (blowdryers) or kitchen (fridge, microwave, toaster, etc.)

      When I charge my Leaf at home, I use a plug I just added to the front of my house, that shares a 20 amp circuit with some other outdoor outlets in my house for now. It would trip if I try to run a table saw while charging the car. So I just plug my table saw in somewhere else :-)

      The wise solution is just try charging the car and see if your breaker ever trips. If it does and you find it inconvenient, you could consider making an upgrade.

      Reply
      • Kyle October 28, 2016, 7:34 am

        Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I’ll hold off on the upgrade for now.

        I’m looking forward to following your experience with the Leaf and comparing it with my own.

        Reply
  • gulliamo October 27, 2016, 1:53 pm

    How is it that you will only receive a limited CO tax credit?

    Colorado State Tax Credit: (-4653)

    My math shows you should get the full $6000. Am I missing something?
    http://electricridecolorado.com/get_set/my_home/ready-your-home/colorado-tax-credits

    Reply
  • Gavin October 28, 2016, 4:34 pm

    Hi there, I got mine about the same time as you, I’m having fun Sussing it out, I can’t stop driving it though, been out every night in it, tons of toys to play with in it, really comfortable seats, so so quiet and fairly quickly, especially from 15 -45mph , it’s great so far, enjoyed reading about your experiences so far, think I’m a volt head now, chow

    Reply
  • ZJ Thorne October 31, 2016, 4:36 pm

    Do you really think that autonomous vehicles will be standard in 4 years? That would be amazing for folks with disabilities. I live in a city with public transportation, which helps me not own a car. I hope that autonomous vehicles become fleet-based. I’d love to check one out only when I needed it.

    Reply
  • AP Matrix October 31, 2016, 5:14 pm

    Dear MMM, when it gets cold up there in Boulder area, will you please post an update of ACTUAL mileage (not an estimate by the car when you first turn it on) on days when it gets RFC (Really Freaking Cold)?
    Please and thank you! I used to own a 2013 leaf and loved it but I’m in California. After your article I’m curious as to how an electric car performs in serious cold (-20 C or colder).

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache November 1, 2016, 10:16 am

      Yeah, I’m definitely looking forward to trying that! We are generally more in the -6C to +7C (+20F to +45F) range in the dead of winter, but every year there seems to be at least one night that might hit -20C.

      That will be the time to try out the range, although a temperature like that usually comes with icy-shit-covered roads you would not really want to drive on. (For the record I become even more extremely anti-car in the snow, but still love to bike).

      Reply
  • Mike November 1, 2016, 8:57 am

    Would like to hear more about your decision to get new vs used Leaf. New with options seems anti-mustachian. FOund this article after purchasing a used 2013 Leaf S with 12k miles and full battery bars for ~$9,250+ tax. Decided to finance about 7k of the cost (@2.99%) to build credit score and keep cash available for investment.
    In some states, you can get a rebate from your utility for the full cost of a Level 2 charger. Here is a pretty handy website showing EV incentives: https://pluginamerica.org/why-go-plug-in/state-federal-incentives/

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache November 1, 2016, 10:07 am

      Hey Mike, sounds like a great choice!

      As noted in the article, a used one is best for most people. Getting a new one in my case was an advocacy rather than financial decision.
      (a) Wanted to test out and promote the longer range of the 30 kWh battery pack
      (b) To support the EV market with a conscious vote of dollars
      (c) We are in an odd “infinite money” situation, so other factors move above money sometimes

      The right financial decision for us would actually to have zero cars. We really don’t need them. In order to even have a reason to drive this new Leaf, I’ve had to become an Uber driver (upcoming article!).

      Reply
  • Joey November 2, 2016, 6:13 pm

    That financing thing also blew my mind when I bought a new Seat Ibiza in Austria back in 2012 (Probably the most stupid purchase I’ve ever made. I had to sell it at a loss of 2k half a year later when I moved to Holland where having a car is just a pain). I think it was a 1000 euro discount back then and there was an interest rate but a fairly low one. What made it even more crazy was that they didn’t ask for payslips or any other assurance that they would ever see any money from me. They just wanted to see my driving license; even a proof of address was not required. I paid down the full debt after maybe two months.

    Reply
  • Widjet November 3, 2016, 11:11 pm

    I also financed about $11k of a new car purchase (as much as they would allow me to) at 0%, 5yr and I faced the same insurance dilema about carrying the comprehensive/collision and the lower deductible. Until at one point around year 3.5 I just called up my insurer and dropped the comprehensive/collision and raised the deductibles back up to whatever my umbrella required. Now I only carry the bodily injury/property damage/uninsured motorist cover. I even discussed it with the agent and he said he highly doubted the lien holder/lender would ever check the cover levels. He was right. I have about 6 months of pay-off left and I have heard absolutely nothing from the lender about it. If push came to show I really wouldn’t have a problem paying off the final $1.2k of the loan anyway (;

    Reply
  • Ben November 5, 2016, 10:04 pm

    MMM Thanks for the post! We managed to get a 2016 S30 in CA for $16,500 after all sales tax and tax credits on Halloween. And, by “we” I mean my wife did all the negotiating. Work is pretty close and provides free charging, so I haven’t even plugged it in yet at home. Can’t wait to get the HOV lane sticker. But, it’s still tough to part with my trusty 2000 protege a little before getting to distance-to the moon mileage. :)

    Reply
  • edatoakrun November 6, 2016, 12:26 pm

    I’ve been very satisfied with my LEAF over 5+ years, though all BEVs took quite a hit in resale values when gas prices dropped precipitously in late 2014.

    I posted here, back in 6/14:

    “…Actually, I had already come close to reaching that conclusion over three years ago, and bought a new 2011 Nissan LEAF.

    I had never bought a new vehicle before, but California and federal incentives brought the net price down…”

    http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/(dramatic)-depreciation-of-all-gasoline-cars-when-electrics-become-affordable/5

    And I just posted an update on costs, and a link to this article/blog at the MNL forum:

    “MMM wrote a good article explaining how to analyze the cost advantages of owning a BEV.

    My total out-of-pocket cost with tax was about $6,000 more than he paid.

    But I saved ~$7,000 on gas alone (not to mention the many other costs and headaches of owning an ICEV) in the last 5.5 years…”

    http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22748&p=474557#p474557

    Reply
  • Scott November 11, 2016, 9:36 am

    Now that Mr. Trump is headed for the White House, is the federal tax credit in jeopardy? Like MMM, I buy my electricity from a wind farm in Colorado, and I would love to use it to power the car my wife uses to commute to work. Is it time to buy a Leaf before he gets into office?

    Reply
    • Kyle November 11, 2016, 9:49 am

      One of his stated goals is to rollback all efforts to combat climate change in favor of pushing fossil fuels and the speaker of the house has tax reform as one of his top priorities. I would expect this to be on the chopping block. Additionally, with the inevitable repeal of the Affordable Care Act and an uncertain replacement, the aspiring early retirees out there may have to recalculate your budgets. It is very likely that there will no subsidies for those choosing to live on minimal income.

      Reply
    • The Wealthy Accountant November 11, 2016, 2:19 pm

      Like everything with taxes, Scott, it is a wait and see situation. My gut feeling is the credit is safe for now. At the very minimum it should be in place all of 2017.I doubt we will see many tax increases at first, but a lot of new spending.

      Reply
  • wallit November 15, 2016, 1:47 pm

    Pete – I was looking at the linked spreadsheet and comparing with my situation (fully paid off new ford fusion – I found your site only post-purchase – and barely any driving), and I noticed what I believe is an error in your calculations.

    Your formula for investment returns assumes that each new row represents a months worth of time invested. However, there are a number of places where no time has actually passed, or less than a month has passed. The first example would be moving from “No car payment yet” on 10/1/16 to “Sold old car on Craigslist”, which occurs the same day.

    Instead of simply dividing by 12 months in a year each row, I divided by 365 days in a year over the number of days between the two events (365/(A8-A7) for example). While to start off this doesn’t seem to make a large difference, by September ’22 I believe you’re overstating your investment returns by 34%.

    While this may only work out to $600 over the next 5 years I figured it might be worth noting in cases that are close, and someone once told me millionaires are made one $10 decision at a time. ;)

    Thanks as always for the great content and food for thought!

    Reply
  • Jaime B November 18, 2016, 3:05 pm

    I love how much research you did on this car – thank you! We are considering one for our family too, but the crash test safety ratings (and pictures) freak me out. Thoughts?
    http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/nissan/leaf-4-door-hatchback/2016
    http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/30/chevy-volt-acceptable-nissan-leaf-poor-new-iihs-safety-test/

    Reply
  • Justin December 5, 2016, 12:58 pm

    I got a used 2013 Nissan Leaf with 30k miles and 12/12 battery with quick charge and 6.6kw fast charging board for $7500 before taxes. For that price it is a STEAL! I used leafspy to check and it has only been quick charged 5 times and the SOH(battery health) is at 91%.

    It is a great commuter car but I wouldn’t recommend it as your only car if you have to drive longer than 35-40 miles round trip. You don’t want to rely on public chargers to get around. Some can be broken, someone could be using them or parked in the spot or the charger can be broken. In the future it will get better but we aren’t at that point yet.

    My reasoning for getting this used is that the Tesla 3 is about to come out and the Bolt which will make these Leafs (including 2016) look like toys comparing their range and battery. The used market is already bad for the Leafs but after those cars come out it will be even worse. So better not to invest too much and have a sweet car for a sweet price. Just my take on it :)

    Reply
  • Dale December 6, 2016, 10:23 am

    ​Want a basic income, how about solar panels to power your Electric car? You only need 9 solar panels which, depending on gas prices can return that investment in just 24 months. Free fuel for the next 23 years. So buy your EV, fold down the seats and load all the fuel you need to drive your car for the next 23 years in your trunk. Need some proof. Quick calculation for average annual mileage of 15,000 miles. Divide by average EV range of 3 miles per kilowatt hour and you need 5000 kWh’s (Kilowatt hours) for the year. So you need 5000 kWh’s / 365 days or 13.7 kWh’s a day. On average in most of U.S. we get around 5 hours a day of good solar power (less in winter, more in summer). The result, a system size of 13.7 kWh’s / 5 hours of good sun or 2.7 Kilowatts. Using for example panels that produce 300 watts each you need 2700 watts / 300 watts or just 9 solar panels. With net metering, you just pay to move those electrons to wherever you are charging your car.

    Reply
  • Hannah L. December 14, 2016, 11:06 am

    Ok, so upon reading the comments I see that the charger probably auto-cycles and shuts off charging when the battery hits 100% and should prevent phantom usage. But since you use your car so infrequently, do you keep the charger plugged in at all times? Is it more cost-effective to leave the charger plugged in for weeks or months at a time, and have the auto-cycle turn on whenever the battery naturally degrades to, say, 90% after non-use, or is it better to unplug the car and charge it back up immediately before you want to use it?

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache December 14, 2016, 12:09 pm

      Hi Hannah,

      You’re right – I verified that the charger draws less than 1 watt of wasted power after it stops charging (and about 1330 watts while actively charging).

      But I don’t bother charging unless the car is below about 30%, unless I have a lot of driving planned the next day. Even when charging, I usually only top it up to 80% or so, again unless I need more range. Plus, there’s a lot of free L2 charging around town, so I have been taking advantage of that too.

      The battery lasts slightly longer if you don’t leave it at 100% for extended periods of time, and it also lives longer if you do fewer charge cycles.

      Reply
  • Sirus December 14, 2016, 9:55 pm

    Nice article as usual, I really enjoyed reading it.

    one point though,

    >although with battery prices down 80% over the last 10 years, I would expect this to be about 50% lower by the time a new battery grows old enough to need replacement.

    Under normal circumstance, car manufacture will never, like literally NEVER, offer cheaper genuine spare parts to the consumers, no matter how much cheaper they can produce those things.

    That’s how they make juicy money ;)

    Reply

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