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So I Bought an Electric Car…

The new ride - a 2016 Leaf SV in a sweet '70s brown color.

The new ride – a 2016 Leaf SV in this deluxe ’70s brown color.

Before we begin, I should probably admit that the Mustache family absolutely did not need a new car. Or even a new used car. In fact, we didn’t even need the two older used cars that we have been keeping around for the last five years, because our local life has blossomed so nicely in this small city that there is really nothing outside of biking distance, aside from the odd trip to the airport.

If I were still my real retired self (circa 2005-2011), we probably would have sold these vehicles and gone blissfully car-free, combining bikes and bike trailers, with car sharing, carpooling, rentals, and Uber/Lyft rides for our trips out of town, which only average twice per month. The money savings of maybe $2000 per year would only be a minor improvement to our annual spending, but the peace of mind of a clear driveway, no maintenance or registration or maintenance or insurance, and the joy of trying something new, would be worth much more.

But instead, I now lead this dual life: Normal Pete, the retired Dad/carpenter is in control for 90% of my waking hours, but like a werewolf, his alter ego Mr. Money Mustache (circa 2011 to present) takes over occasionally, and he has a different agenda.

MMM is restless, reckless, bossy, prone to experimentation, has a surplus of blog-related income at his disposal, and has to answer to millions of people. Pete’s friends mostly live nearby and already ride bikes, but certain MMM readers are still burning millions of gallons of gasoline driving gas-powered cars on long commutes. Many of them want to know if there is a better way.

So, Mr. Money Mustache just bought himself a brand-new, 2016 Nissan Leaf to run a long-term science experiment and report the data back to you. Pete is a bit nervous about this shiny new toy in the driveway, but he will do his best to have some fun with it.

Why is this a Valid Experiment?

As I mentioned in the recent post about Driving a Tesla to California, I think we’re on the cusp of a very positive change in transportation. Gasoline-powered cars are just about to go the way of the dinosaurs they burn as fuel, and they’ll be replaced by a mixture of electric cars you can drive yourself, and electric cars that drive themselves

However, this transition is just getting started. Over 99% of new cars sold in the US are still gas-powered, and when I run the numbers as an engineer and car enthusiast, I find this to be preposterous. Logically, this should already be less than 50%, and by the end of this decade, it should be zero. The only thing keeping more people from ditching gasoline is that people don’t realize how fucking amazing electric cars are, and I feel I should do my part to share this information. The most effective way to do this is to own one myself and write about the experience.

So Why Did You Choose a Brand-New Nissan Leaf?

The simplest way to explain might be to draw a complete picture of the US car market as I see it – including both gas and electric vehicles of all categories. This decision-making chart covers the spectrum of personal transportation needs for, as far as I can tell, about 99% of the population.

Fig. 1: Car Decision Chart

Fig. 1: Car Decision Chart

I was initially looking for a 2013 Leaf, but given my city’s location (90 miles roundtrip to the airport and some other key destinations) the longer range of the 2016 SV model would eliminate all possible range anxiety. Plus, given our unusual money situation these days and my desire to support the EV market in general, I figured the extra dollars would not be missed.

Update, October 11th: The Leaf comes in three trim levels called “S”, “SV”, and “SL”. They are each about $3000 apart in price. Those top two trim levels have a 25% bigger battery, so I upgraded to the SV to get it. But as of today, Nissan has revealed they will start offering the bigger battery even in the base model. So you can now get the higher range for a few grand less than what I describe in this article.

 

What about Other Electric Cars?

Besides the Leaf, there are EV versions of the Ford Focus, Volkswagen Golf, Audi A3, BMW i3 and a bunch of other cars. By the end of 2016, the new GM Bolt will be out with 240 miles range, at a higher price. GM has also made the excellent Volt plug-in hybrid  since 2011, which is now pretty affordable on Craigslist. In another 2 years or so, you can get a Tesla Model 3 for $35k before tax credits. And the cars will keep getting better as battery prices drop.

I just chose the Leaf because I wanted to completely ditch the gasoline engine right now. It offered the best price/performance ratio in today’s market and is the most widely available. As you’ll see below, it could actually be considered a cost-effective choice despite the rapidly changing technology.

How Much Does This Thing Cost?

Now THIS is where things get interesting.

Straight off of my sales sheet, this is what the car will cost me:

  • Sticker Price (from the car window): $35,445
  • Dealer Handling Fee (aka more profit margin) added in: $600
  • Assorted Discounts from Dealer: (-4500)
  • Hard-to-Explain Discount from Nissan Finance: (-6000)
  • Federal Tax Credit: (-7500)
  • Colorado State Tax Credit: (-4653)

Sorta Net Price of Car: $13,391

However, it’s not quite that good, because many of these discounts are taken only after you pay sales tax on the full price of the car ($31,544 in this case). In my region, sales tax is about 8.26%, so I paid $2605 of tax. About $1500 more than you’d pay on a car that was really priced at 14 grand.

So my total out-of-pocket cost with tax will be $16,000, which is equivalent to buying a brand-new car with a list price of $14,775. This is right around the price of the cheapest new cars* you can get in the US these days. The difference, of course, is that you get something that is fast, silent, pollution-free, almost free to refuel, carpool-lane eligible and pretty luxurious instead of an economy car.

My Dirty Financing Secret and the Strange Positive Cashflow

Blowing all credibility as Mr. Money Mustache, I actually financed this car.

In order to get that “hard to explain $6000 discount” from Nissan, you have to buy the car with zero downpayment and a 0% interest rate. You can then choose to pay the car off at any point, or let the free money ride over a 72 month payoff period.

I’ve bought new vehicles twice before in my lifetime, and both times I got a discount for paying cash. In this case, the incentives are reversed. (If you work in the financial sector, please let us know in the comments section below why it makes any sense for Nissan to do this!)

The only downside of all this is that carrying a car loan requires me to carry at least $1000-deductible collision/comprehensive insurance on the car, which costs me $190 per year extra at Geico. My car loan is for the full $28,000, so the insurance premium works out to only 0.6% of this balance per year – much less than I’ll earn by investing that money elsewhere, so therefore I’ll keep the loan unless it becomes a pain for some reason.

The net of all this is a very odd cashflow diagram for buying this car:

My net wealth difference over time for buying this car. Original spreadsheet here.

My net cashflow difference over time for buying this car. Original spreadsheet here.

I drove the car home without paying anything at all – I just signed a few papers. Two weeks in, I still haven’t paid a dime, which feels really inappropriate.

Meanwhile, I have already sold my old car on Craigslist and collected $5000 in cash, which is now in the bank. In about a month, Nissan will start withdrawing “car payments” from my bank at $400 per month. But at tax time, I’ll collect that juicy $12,150 in tax credits we saw above. Meanwhile, there are fuel savings every month, and I get to enjoy living in the future (and promoting the joy of gas-free transport to everyone else) the whole time.

The bottom line is that at on balance, I will actually have more money sitting in investments than I would have, if I had kept the old car – at least until mid-2021. On top of that, I’ve placed the new car in service as a business vehicle, which will make it partially tax deductible and skew those graph lines even higher.

At the end of the graph, I put a blip to simulate what would happen if I sold the Leaf for $7500 at that point. Meanwhile, my Scion would have been 16 years old and worth maybe $2000. Who knows what the year 2022 will bring – I could keep the Leaf, or perhaps switch to the latest self-driving electric car with a 400 mile range and replace my domestic air travel with sleeping in my future car while it drives me across the country at night.

Maintenance is much simpler on electric cars, but the battery does fade gradually. The warranty is 8 years, but you might be down to about 50% range after 100,000 miles. The Leaf battery can easily be swapped, at which point you’ll have an almost-new car. If you’re beyond the warranty period, the current price for this upgrade at a Nissan dealership is $5500, although with battery prices down 80% over the last 10 years, I would expect this to be about 50% lower by the time a new battery grows old enough to need replacement. For now, you could consider long-term battery wear to be roughly equivalent to engine maintenance costs on a very reliable small car (3 cents per mile).

Is it Actually A Nice Car?

In general, the Leaf is a spiffy vehicle, both inside and out. Interior materials are reasonably classy, especially if you get the black interior. Seats have a firm, reasonably sporty shape.The 5-door hatchback design makes it easy to load and unload people and cargo. Both front and back seating areas, and the trunk, are quite roomy. I can easily fit five of me into the car (6’0/185 lbs), and two more of me could actually fit into the hatch (without such niceties as seatbelts or comfort, of course). Or you can fold down the 60/40 rear seats and have an area big enough for two bikes or 1-2 adults sleeping (if you set up a level sleeping platform). Overnight camping (even in winter) in an electric car is somewhat practical, because you can run the automatic climate control overnight without running out of battery – even better if you have it plugged in.

The Leaf's main computer screen, and the phone app that goes with it.

The Leaf’s main computer screen, and the phone app that goes with it**.

The car has some semi-useful electronics as well: a permanent cellular data connection allows you to check on the Leaf from your smartphone if you install the Nissan app. You can pre-heat (or pre-cool) the cabin from the comfort of your bed or office, as well as start/stop charging, check the charge level and review your driving history and efficiency with a nice calendar-based record. There’s also a GPS navigation system.

However, the whole system of menus, displays, and the app are a tech experience straight out of 2007. If you judge the Nissan by current iPhone/Android standards, you can only laugh and shake your head. On the other hand, even the Tesla Model S touchscreen is no match for a modern tablet.

Finally, the Leaf’s audio system sounds quite good thanks to 6 speakers including column-mounted tweeters. I filled up a 32GB USB drive (value $9) with about 500 of my favorite albums in MP3 form, and plugged it into the port on the dashboard. The car navigates the folders nicely and displays the album art. So I’m set for life and never have to resort to commercial FM or satellite radio.

How’s the Performance?

The Leaf is a controversial car: some say it is ugly and drives like an econobox, while I find it looks pretty damned nice, especially with the 17″ wheels and wide performance tires (215/50/17) that now come on the SV and SL models.

The weight distribution is close to 50/50 and nice and low, with the battery pack way down under the floor and the electric motor between the front wheels. Combining those good tires with the reasonably tight suspension, I find you can whip this car around on a curvy mountain road and it handles it very well. Cornering and passing in the city and interstate is similarly enjoyable.

But the best part is the acceleration. Subjectively, I’d describe the typical economy car or SUV as “plenty fast”, and a midrange performance car as “way faster than you need.” The Leaf feels even faster, at “holy shit this thing is fast!” – only a couple of impractical notches below my impression of the Tesla Model S, whose acceleration is “YEEEAAAH-WHAT THE HELL I’M ABOUT TO CRASH INTO THIS CAR THAT WAS JUST DISTANT SPECK ON THE HORIZON TWO SECONDS AGO!!”

The speed is a bit elusive: acceleration around town is fierce, but the official 0-60MPH acceleration numbers for the car are hard to find. So I tested it myself by flooring the car with a camera mounted in the back. You can also get a feel for the smooth, quiet operation of this car as there’s a bit of regular driving thrown in there:

leaf 0-60

As noted in the video, the actual numbers are only average compared to professional driver results on a moderately sporty car like a Honda Civic. But the instant 100% torque (187 ft-lbs of it) means that casually hitting the gas pedal on this car is equivalent to instantly shifting down to first gear in that Honda, revving the engine to 4000 RPM, then dropping the clutch at full throttle and powershifting through the gears at redline. Most people don’t drive like that in real life, and thus an electric car feels much faster for most drivers.

How Far Can it Go on a Charge? (and how much does the charging cost?)

The EPA rates the car at 107 miles per charge, because they simulate typical American driving patterns (full throttle at all times with constant unnecessary braking, and a parachute and a sack of bricks attached to the back of the car). So far, my lowest performance has been 115 miles (25 miles remaining after a 90 mile roundtrip to a far corner of Denver, mostly on the interstate at 70-80 MPH with A/C). And my best is around 150 miles (city and country driving averaging about 45MPH).

“How Long Does it Take to Charge?” is usually the next question, but the idea of waiting to fuel your car is actually somewhat obsolete. Because you generally just leave it plugged in every night, you awake to a car that is totally full – so most electric car owners never need to make a refueling stop. Much more convenient than gasoline.

However, to actually answer the question – you also can charge the car from empty to full in about 5 hours at the typical public charging station (these are often free to use). Or about 30 minutes at a DC fast charging station. Nissan provides 2 years of free nationwide charging with new Leafs. Public charging is starting to become pretty useful:

There are over 36,000 public charging machines in the US, and the number grows by over ten per day.  This should continue to accelerate, because an 8-car gasoline pumping station costs about $1 million to build, while an 8-spot EV charger would be less than half the cost, and requires much less land (plus profit margins on electricity can be much higher than those on gasoline). Existing gas station chains including BP are already adding electric charging stations alongside their gas pumps.

Both coasts have already set up an “electric highway” infrastructure, which is a string of the ultra-fast 30 minute chargers spaced conveniently for electric cars.

If I’m charging at home, the car holds about 30 kWh of electricity, which costs roughly $3.00 at my local electric rates. By comparison, an economy car (35MPG) would burn around $10 of gas at today’s cheap prices to go the same distance, which means the Leaf is getting the equivalent of roughly 115 MPG. This comparison gets even better as the price of gas increases.

Do I Need an Expensive Home Charging Station?

In most cases, no. Just plug the car into a regular outlet whenever you aren’t using it, using the cord that comes with the car. This adds 4-5 miles of charge per hour, or 60 miles per day if you leave your car parked from, say, 7PM to 7AM.

If you need faster home charging (3-4x faster than the standard cord), you grab a 240 volt charger (about $300 on Amazon), and plug it in to any dryer plug. You can add an outlet like this in your garage or driveway for about $60 in parts and wiring, or hire an electrician to do it for a few hundred dollars, depending on the distance from your main breaker panel. Or you can get even fancier – search Amazon for “J1772” for all your options.

It’s even better if you can plug it in at work and let your employer pay for your energy.

Don’t Electric Cars Pollute Just as Much because of Coal Power Generation?

No. Because electric motors are much more efficient, even the worst case (charging an electric car purely on coal-fired electricity) comes out slightly better than burning the typical fracked and imported gasoline mix. Even better, the US electric grid is only about 28% coal these days, and dropping. Natural gas is still our biggest generator for now, but solar and wind account for almost half of new capacity added each year.

At my house, I’ve enjoyed 100% wind power for over 10 years, just by signing up to my local power company’s wind power program. Whether you buy an electric car or not, you should check with your electric company and switch to wind power (or install solar panels) immediately. And save your receipt, because I might use it as an excuse to invite you to lunch someday.

Further Reading:

This car is a pretty new thing for me. As I have some fun and test it out, I’ll put the results on a permanent page on this blog called The Nissan Leaf Experiment.

Although I have no affiliation with Nissan or any car dealership, I had a great experience buying this from Nigel at Boulder Nissan, because he’s a genuine EV nerd rather than a car salesman. If you’re shopping for one of these cars, feel free to compare the price I paid price to those at your own local dealership, or contact Nigel himself. You can tell him MMM sent you (he’ll know what that means).

Have Questions? Ask them in the comments below

I really enjoy talking about energy and transportation stuff, so I will do my best to answer more questions below. Also, I suspect that about half of the world’s 97,000 Leafs are owned by Mustachians since we are the ideal demographic for such inventions. So you’re an owner and know the answer to one of the questions, feel free to answer it on my behalf. And also share any corrections to this article if you see some incorrect details.

* note: most of the cars on that 10-most-affordable-cars list are excellent choices, especially the Honda Fit

** notice how my phone reports a different range than the main screen? That’s the perfect example of the clunky interface. You have to manually hit the “refresh” button on the phone app, which then goes into an unsightly 1990s spinning animation for, quite literally 38 seconds before you get the new data.

I can’t help imagining the request must be triggering a pager on someone’s belt at the Nissan Tennessee factory, who then runs to the nearest landline telephone and frantically makes a call.

Martha: “Hello, Bill? This is Martha at Nissan Tennessee. We need a range check on Mr. Money Mustache’s Leaf in Longmont Colorado!” 

Bill: “No problem, I’m right in that neighborhood right now! I’ll pull into his street and check on the car. Stand by. (…)”

Bill: “OK! I got it! He’s at 124 miles remaining.”

Martha: “Thanks Bill! You are like a gazelle these days. How are the kids?”

Bill: “Well, Bill Jr. is a little bit sick, but we’re doing pretty well. Cynthia’s starting soccer next week…”

Martha: “Well, I better get this number entered into the mainframe. Talk to you later!”

Bill: “Sure thing, talk to you later!”

A few seconds later, I get my range update.

Hint to Nissan: you can poll this shit asynchronously in the background, and then the data will be reasonably current whenever I open the app. You cannot have 38 second delays in a product that you actually ship to customers. Who actually saw this and said, “Ship it!”?? Please hire some Mustachians to design all aspects of your interface in the future. We can help if you want to get in touch before the next Leaf comes out. Your look-and-feel grace period is almost over, as Tesla will not be gentle with you.

  • Jeremy December 18, 2016, 9:20 am

    MMM, I’m on the fence as well on purchasing a fully-loaded 2016 SL LEAF. The concept to use this car as a commuter for 25 miles one-way here in CO makes sense to me and from my initial impression love the techy feature set the vehicle offers. I currently have a 2 car solution, 96 Honda accord w/280k miles and a 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport w/170k miles for snowy days. These older vehicles are turning into more maintenance of late than I desire so I believe I need a different solution here within the next year. The LEAF would cost about $17k out-of-pocket after tax credits and discounts if I buy before the end of this year. Or my Grandma is replacing her 2008 Honda Accord EX with 100k miles here in the next few months with a 2017 Accord and has offered it to me for $7-8k. So I’m asking for your/others expertise/reasoning on which option makes the most sense. I do have space challenges in my 2-car garage to accommodate the LEAF’s charging necessities so will have to string an external extension cord until I can build a shed in the spring. Is charging via an extension cord an initial practical solution?

    I eventually would like to be an EV owner, so I was curious if you have any regrets on your purchase as to whether you should have waited for the Tesla Model 3(for more range and better preforming vehicle) as I’m considering that as well?

    I typically purchase vehicles and run them into the ground, so how much life should I anticipate getting out of the 2016 LEAF?

    As EVs are getting more and more popular do you envision charging station availability away from home becoming an inconvenience enough to hinder purchasing now?

    Thanks so much in advance for any feedback anyone can offer in helping me make a wise decision!

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache December 18, 2016, 8:45 pm

      Hey Jeremy,

      In your situation, I’d probably go for a 2013 Leaf SV for $7-9k, and a good set of snow tires. Then you could get rid of that thirsty Jeep, and your remaining Accord would serve you well for any extended road trips.

      The 2013 Leaf would probably have 25k miles or so, and thus be be good on its first battery for another 60k until you might start finding the range low for that roundtrip commute. Although much longer if you have any plugs at work!

      Reply
  • Tom January 9, 2017, 9:13 pm

    For us cold climate readers, how has your new machine been working in the Colorado winter?

    I am in the market for an EV in Alberta. Unfortunately searching Autotrader there are TWO used EVs for sale in all of Alberta right now, absurd! A 2015 Fiat 500E with 15,000 km for $18,700 and a 2014 Nissan Leaf with 35,000km for $19,995. Seems silly given that there are 2,857 F-150s for sale in the province.

    Importing one of these from the states seems like a logical choice given all of the subsidies built into the used market prices, however the task of getting a car with a 125km range in seems like a daunting task.

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache January 10, 2017, 10:41 am

      Hi Tom,

      I’ve got a separate article planned for winter experiences with the leaf (it is a FANTASTIC winter car due to the heated seats, precise electric motor with traction control, pre-heating, etc.). But the range does decrease in cold temperatures, and 125 km with no recharging would be pushing it in temperatures below -10C – even with a new 30 kWh leaf.

      Also, those used prices are INSANE!! Definitely not worth it yet – in your case I’d look for (you guessed it) a late-2000s Honda Fit at well under $10k.

      Reply
    • Cabert January 10, 2017, 11:55 am

      It’s hard to find used Leafs in the US because Nissan typically sells them abroad, where they get a better price (like in Sweden). If you’re interested, consider trying to find someone at the end of their Nissan Leaf lease and arrange a buyout, or ask them to transfer the lease to you when it’s almost up. Nissan will often offer a cash bonus for leasers to buy out the car, making the car cheaper than purchasing a used one.

      Because of downward market pressure due to lack of interest in purchasing electric cars, Nissan often has tons of extra new Leafs on the lot that they sell at a very good price, as Mr. Money Mustache got. So sometimes a new one is a better price than a used one.

      Reply
  • Cabert January 10, 2017, 11:52 am

    I’ve been a Leaf user since 2012, and I have a 2015 Leaf (very similar). So I’m relieved that my mustachioed budgeting hero made a similar decision. I will note on the range that my experience is that cold is the biggest suck of battery life rather than heat. So I’m curious what your range will be like in polar vortex-range temperatures.

    Preheating the interior via smartphone app isn’t just a luxury – it’s a necessity in an electric car because it allows you to use plugged-in power for climate control, at least until you need to drive away from home.

    Also I would like to note the possibly reduced rates of electricity you’d get by scheduling your charging at night and setting up a plan with your electric company that charges lower rates at night and higher rates during the daytime (where most people typically use less power).

    Reply
  • LeafySteve January 30, 2017, 12:53 pm

    Well… After 6 months of going back and forth debating the last step, I finally did it… Sold my 2012 F-150 Ecoboost and purchased a 2014 Nissan Leaf (thanks Pete for all of the face punches). After 5 years of lurking/learning/implementing – increasing my efficiency in all things financially related, I can finally say that I’m a full blown Mustache convert. With a savings rate just over 50% and an eye toward environmental impacts I have done a complete 180. My target retirement date is in site – 2022. Thanks Pete for the advice, fun articles, leadership and your eye for environmentalism.

    Reply
  • robbyho February 1, 2017, 9:17 am

    Regarding financing, I know at my last retail sales job we would push 0% interest pretty hard even though the company paid for the financing (not sure how much). This was because the average sale that was financed was almost double the average sale not financed (cash, or customers own credit card). I’d imagine the same to be true for car sales, and that the gross profit on a “$30,000” car is significantly more than when a customer pays cash, uses their own credit line, or otherwise. Most people simple aren’t buying cars in cash, so the dealership gets more sales with the financing incentives.

    Reply
  • FMaz February 14, 2017, 11:21 pm

    I see people asking about the battery in the cold, and saying the performance drops at 10F.

    Anyone had a leaf up north ? Dealing with -40C on a regular basis…

    Also, do they make gel battery pack so, in the event you forget to plug it on a cold night (-60), it won’t permanently damage a $5000 battery ?

    Do they sell battery blankets and trickle chargers ?

    Reply
  • Jad D. February 27, 2017, 8:15 am

    MMM, here’s what you had to say back on April 27, 2013, 9:29 am (in a comment on the “Why Should I Be Frugal When I’m So Rich” post):
    “I wouldn’t even accept the gift of a free Prius plug-in directly from the CEO of Toyota. Why? Because that’s $30,000 of automotive hardware, thousands of pounds of metal and plastic, that would sit 28 days out of every 30 in my garage because I can already bike most places I need to go.”

    I’m not trying for a gotcha – you live an environmentally conscious lifestyle by anybody’s standards. And people whose thinking never changes over time simply aren’t doing a lot of thinking. But can you explain how your thinking changed, specifically about the carbon cost of creating a new vehicle? I know you said you are going to be doing some Uber driving, but is that a reason or justification?

    I ask in part because my own vehicle is a 1999 regular cab F-150. I’m putting about 2,000 miles/year on it. I can afford to get a Leaf, but does it make sense to mine all that aluminum, rare earth metals, etc., when my driving is relatively limited? I’m also concerned that I’ll drive more and bike less with a cushier vehicle.

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache April 13, 2017, 8:53 pm

      Excellent gotcha point Jad!

      The thinking about the hypothetical free Toyota was that it would absolutely be wasted on me.

      But more recently I have been thinking about advocacy – if I buy a Leaf, then a bunch of other people will become aware of electric cars, and it will help shift the industry.

      And sure enough, at least several hundred people did make the shift after this article, enough to noticeably impact US Leaf sales since Nissan only sell s about 1000 of those things per month here. Most “normal” people who buy Leafs are replacing a gas car for a serious commute.

      In general, we do have to switch from gas cars to electric – 100% of them. But bikes are still a much better choice.

      Reply
  • Lee March 15, 2017, 6:13 pm

    Just discovered this blog today and it is AWESOME!
    Yesterday I listed for sale my Toyota 4Runner which I brought only 3 months ago – mostly on credit. I knew something was wrong when the payments I was making we’re restricting my life, as opposed to the impression I had previously that it would enable more in life…camping / downhill shuttles / off-roading / ski trips.

    Question for you though – because when I sell I’ll need to replace it with something.

    I live in Vancouver, BC. I mountain bike and ski whenever possible and thus drive in lots of snow, ice, mud and off-road conditions. I identified a Subaru Forester or impreza as a good possible car with the AWD and have found suitable ones for around $5000 with around 150,000km on them.

    I just noticed subys weren’t included in your options. Is it for the poorer mileage than a 2WD Toyota?
    I’m trying to find the right balance between practicality and terrain ability. I bike to work so this is a leisure vehicle but does get taken off-road most weekends and quite a bit of hwy driving…. any tips would be much appreciated :)

    Reply
  • D'Arcy April 13, 2017, 1:27 am

    Ah, here we go. I knew you would be in on this electric financing deal. Thanks for explaining it to the world. As I said in the commute post, in Ontario we can now get a Ford Focus EV for 37.5K with tax at 0% for 6 years and get 14K back! This makes an electric car a no brainer. I bought a 2016 Leaf S for 39.5K over 6 years and got 11k back in on April 14th 2016. My return was near 30% on the 11k. I am thinking of selling my 2016 Leaf S and buying two more electrics cars this year. 2017 Ford Focus EV and 2016 Spark EV. The resale value actually seems high enough to actually sell after keeping for a year to keep the credit which is bizarre but could be explained by bad credit. Only 20% of buyers get the low financing.

    http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/electric/electric-vehicle-rebate.shtml

    Reply
  • A New Yorker April 14, 2017, 2:47 pm

    NY finally delivered its long-awaited $1,700 EV Rebate (or $2,000 for 120+ Mile Range EVs – i.e. only the Chevy Bolt)

    I crunched the numbers on keeping my old reliable 2009 Hyundai or buying a 2017 Ford Focus Electric. Tweaked MMM’s original template.

    For anyone interested in a spreadsheet with the dates updates, feel free to borrow and make this your own.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yEQduhaK4Pg_C_1Arl-qja5j5oMeQpwXHNb4Lko__qE/edit?usp=sharing

    Reply
    • A New Yorker April 14, 2017, 3:04 pm

      Almost forgot to mention – thanks to Niagara Falls’ hydro, a nuclear reactor, and a strong prevailing wind, Upstate NY has the ‘cleanest’ electricity generation in the USA. So CNYers can rest assured they are not swapping gasoline power for coal power.

      Reply
      • A New Yorker April 17, 2017, 1:40 pm

        MMM,
        I bought the car – I’ve updated my Google spreadsheet with the actual sale price and incentives. Perhaps folks with unlimited $$ or a longer commute will be holding out for the Bolt or Tesla, but for me, the 2017 Ford Focus Subsidized Net Retail Price of $16,656 is too cheap to pass up.

        My 6-Year Projected Net Cash Flow is $5,638 to the good, with $6,640.97 in projected fuel savings. The real numbers might be even better because my 2009 would realistically be end-of-life sooner than 2023, gas prices will almost certainly rise faster than electric, and a planned solar installation should yield further optimization.

        Coincidentally, with about 7 years left to FIRE, I expect that this car will be my last. Thanks to MMM for doing the math, and inspiring those of us who “Seriously, need a car” to take the win/win EV plunge.

        Reply
        • A New Yorker April 19, 2017, 7:50 am

          One last change – the dealership was wrong when they explained how this works. The rebate is not applied at tax time, but rather at the dealership. Because I am financing $1,700 less at 0%, the 6-Year Projected Cash Flow is a slightly lower $5,246. Still a great deal though.

          NY Buyers – make sure the dealership is listed by NYSERDA on the Drive Clean Rebate dealer list. In the end, I needed to educate my “EV-Certified” dealer and get them to sign up, lol.

          Reply
  • Laurie May 4, 2017, 1:37 pm

    Ran across this post doing research on electric cars. I’m on the waiting list for a Tesla Model 3. Sadly a tree fell on my 2004 Honda CRV this past weekend and I now need to replace it. I’m trying to decide if I should by a used or new Leaf (or other EV). And do I recall my $1K from Tesla or stay on the list. We have another gas powered car in the family for longer trips.

    Reply
  • JK July 31, 2017, 11:27 am

    MMM,

    How is the Leaf’s battery performance when driving into the mountains? Say, going up 36 to Estes Park and back (appx 3,400 ft of elevation gain)? What about the same trip during the winter, in the snow, when you must run defrost for safety reasons?

    I’ve read on other websites that winter temperatures don’t affect an EV (only the use of heat) but I’m calling unicorn and rainbow BS on that one as every single other lithium powered device I have is measurably affected by the cold: from my 18v Bosch tools, to Nikon battery packs, to my phone: cold ambient temps affect performance, sometimes dramatically.

    I live in west Evergreen and commute to Lakewood for a distance of around 50 miles RT and 3,000 ft of elevation loss/gain. In pricing low priced used EV’s (Leaf, 500e, etc.) with 80+/- range, I can finance for 4 years@ 2% and the payment would be less than my monthly gas bill driving my current vehicle: 06′ Tundra at $200 per month for fuel (at $2.30ish per gallon). Not too mention the money saved from less maintenance, less tire wear etc. for said Tundra.

    I’m right on the cusp of buying one of these vehicles but I really would like a no BS assessment for Colorado mountain driving assuming full charge when leaving home and assuming no charging when at work or in town.

    Also, the $7,500 fed credit only applies if you OWE on your taxes, correct? E.g. if one owes $5,000 then the credit is worth $5,000 with no refund of the remaining $2,500.

    Thank you.
    Justin

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache August 1, 2017, 2:42 pm

      Hey Justin – you should DEFINITELY get rid of that Tundra, either way!

      As for the Estes Park / Winter issue: elevation isn’t as much an issue as you might think: just subtract about 4.5 kWh of EXTRA energy for each 1000 meters (3280 ft) of elevation gain. On top of the usual calculation of 0.25 kWh for each mile you drive.

      However, your Unicorn theory is correct – a cold battery makes a big difference: I measured about a 25% battery capacity reduction when driving at 15F versus peak power at 80F. Even without running the cabin heat – the main difference is the battery’s energy capacity when cold.

      To wrap it all up, a 50 mile roundtrip in winter would be no problem for a Leaf – even an old 24 kWh model. Since it’s a roundtrip, the elevation cancels out. You’d use just about zero power on your way to work (or even end up making a surplus). Then you would use about 10-15 kWh on the way home. No problem!

      Reply
  • Jad D. September 28, 2017, 8:16 am

    DC-area readers: for anyone who reads this far, note that there’s a promotion similar to the one MMM took advantage of: the local utility (PEPCO) is offering $10,000 off the 2017 Nissan Leaf. The $7500 federal tax credit is still available, and DC offers to waive the excise fee on electric cars. So cost is $31k – $10k – $7.5k, or $13.5k. May be a “mandatory” fee or two the dealer will try to stick you with. No financing required.

    http://www.pepco.com/uploadedFiles/wwwpepcocom/Content/Page_Content/community-commitment/PHI1108P_Nissan%20Leaf%20Flyer_Layout.pdf

    Reply
    • Adam September 28, 2017, 10:56 am

      Nice find! I’m a little bummed it expires this Saturday, but what can you do? I appreciate the reminder to check with Pepco in the next three or four years when the time comes to replace one or both of our cars with an elecric.

      Reply
      • joy September 29, 2017, 6:59 pm

        Wait for the new leaf with 150 range that is coming out in early next year

        Reply
  • Justin C April 10, 2018, 1:13 pm

    Great, all of us taxpayers subsidized your purchase in the amount of $11,000+. Now, we’ll also subsidize you every time you fill up because of the subsidy you get in selling your wind power back to the grid at retail, rather than at the wholesale price.

    Enjoy your subsidized lifestyle. And no, electric cars are often not more efficient or green than gasoline cars once you take energy transmission costs and lithium mining and metals mining costs into account. Both are likely to increase, as commodities are currently priced near an all-time low relative to financial assets. The only way they have left to go is up.

    Unless or until Nuclear power becomes a major power source, chances are your electric car will likely cost more in real, non-subsidized terms than relatively efficient gas guzzlers will. Fortunately for you, you benefit from subsidies that skew the economic calculation away from the most resource-efficient decisions.

    Reply
  • Bob S. April 11, 2018, 11:25 am

    I’m interested in buying a 2016 Nissan Leaf SV with the max of 107 miles of range (I know this is city driving, etc.). But I am gouging my eyes out trying to find the average highway range. I know there are a billion variables (speed, ac/heat, blah, blah, blah) but does anyone know an average? Like if I’m averaging 60 mph with little braking, no ac, no heat, what mile range can I expect? 30 mile? 80 miles?

    Please help!!!

    Reply
    • Mr. Money Mustache April 13, 2018, 3:38 pm

      Hi Bob, I’d say About 100 miles at that speed, depending on elevation and temperature.

      My worst performance was 78 miles, which was achieved at 70-75 MPH, with passengers, at a punishing 15F outdoor temperature. It goes up rapidly from there if you improve the conditions.

      Reply
  • Kevin Klinger November 27, 2018, 4:20 am

    I am going to purchase an ev, but the new tax law leaves me wondering if I’ll be able to take advantage of all the tax credits. Here goes…
    My tax liability is roughly $9,500. I qualify for the following tax credits; $2,000 child tax credit, $2,000 child tax credit, $500 non-child tax credit, $2,500 American Opportunity Tax Credit and $7,500 electric vehicle credit.

    The AOTC is only refundable up to $1,000.
    Does this mean I can still use the remaining $1,500 as a credit?

    Can I take the $7,500 EV credit, the $500 non-child credit and the $1,500 AOTC as credits to reduce my liability to $0 and then apply the refundable amounts from the remaining tax credits? This would be$1,400 child tax refund, $1,400 child tax refund and $1,000 AOTC refund.

    Thanks for your help,
    Kevin

    Reply
  • Cory Hill July 21, 2019, 3:48 pm

    Thanks for the inspiration. I recently moved to Austin and decided it was time for an electric. Picked up a 2011 Leaf with 38k miles and a newer battery that was replaced in 2016 and still at 92% soh. Only $4800. Bought a new set of tires and loving it so far. I figure I can get 5-6 years out if it and then pickup a used Bolt.

    Reply

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